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Talk:Logistical Support and Medical Division
We shouldn't describe events in this article I think we need to remove parts of the article that describe events. This article is meant to describe the organization and how it is setup not what happened plot-wise. If we leave it as it is, it will become cluttered and repetitive, since this information is described elsewhere. I will remove the event descriptions in this article after 24 hours of this posting unless I get a response.--Alastar 89 (talk) 18:16, May 20, 2011 (UTC) :This would also mean removing events from the other Allied Forces divisions. We need to have some description on what they did, their impact as in what they do affects are much more grand scale than regular teams. Omnibender - Talk - 22:58, May 20, 2011 (UTC) ::I don't see why we need to reiterate the events that have taken place in the when the even/plot is being explained elsewhere, it just seems repetitive and unnecessary. This is supposed to be a reference, not a description of everything they have done. I would like to have this article be more like the Hokage article in that it explains the 'office' or position of Hokage without giving an account for every action a Hokage has done in office. This is supposed to give the reader a idea of what this department/division is supposed to do and the composition of the organization/division. A reader is supposed to be directed to this article if they don't understand what the division is, not for the purpose of a chronology. Also omitting this event information will lessen the chance of spoiling the story for people when they are looking for the description of the organization. I would like to edit this article within 24 hours, if you want to add something to the discussion then I will hold off until the discrepancy of how to present this article is dealt with.--Alastar 89 (talk) 01:26, May 22, 2011 (UTC) :::The main reason I'm against it is because that would mean removing the events listing in the other division articles, which in some cases is a lot of information. I wouldn't oppose making the article shorter by making the description of the events shorter themselves, through removal of excessive detailing of events. Omnibender - Talk - 01:48, May 22, 2011 (UTC) :::I don't agree with your suggestion. The word "Hokage" is just a term. That page and a page like this serves entirely different purposes. I don't see anything wrong with chronicling the major even surrounding any of the event in the same way we do for other teams. It also makes more sense that people can come to one article and see what the Medical division for example contributed instead of running to Shizune, Sakura's and 10 other people's pages to piece the events together. Additionally, if someone doesn't want the story to be spoiled for them, they really have no business on a wiki at all.--Cerez365™ 01:49, May 22, 2011 (UTC) :::There's only one Hokage at a time, so it wouldn't make sense to discuss the position at it relates to the plot. There's also the fact that what the division does may have nothing to do with any one character, in which case, if the events were not covered here, they wouldn't be covered at all. :::The structure and content of this article is the same as it is for the other divisions, which matches what all of the team articles have been doing for years. :::And people shouldn't be using the wiki if they're worried about spoilers. ''~SnapperT '' 01:53, May 22, 2011 (UTC) ::::Every team has its own "History" section, so why not this one? Yatanogarasu 01:58, May 22, 2011 (UTC) : To give you guys a better understanding of what I am driving at I should of used the Ninja Academy as an example. This 'division'/department is tasked with creating Ninjas which serve the Konohagakure. This concept of part of the whole is similar to what the Logistical support and medical division is to the Allied Shinobi Alliance, serving to heal its members and provide materials. The 'Allied Shinobi Alliance' *should* have the history and events described on its article page, the Alliance is an organization like the Ninja village Konohagakure. The article would mention the 'Logistical Support and Medical Division'(link to said divisions article), the article would be structured similar to the 'Ninja Academy' article ; it would describe the functions and processes of the division/department. If you are going to include a history it should state who leads/lead the said division, which would link to that persons article. The department 'history', if you can call it that, is actually the mission statement (what they do for the whole of the organization). The reason I made this an issue is because I believe the following statement within the 'Logistical Support and Medical Division' article isn't necessary to describing what the division is and its composition: "Sakura Haruno joins the medics from her division. As the night drags on, three jōnin-level medics (Toyosa, Takemaru and Hino) are murdered. Suspecting that Akatsuki has managed to take control of someone, Neji Hyūga, having come to rest from overuse of his Byakugan, as well as to treat his injuries, volunteers to find the culprit. During his investigation, Neji kills two medics before proceeding to Sakura's location." Why is this worth mentioning in this article, this could be mentioned in the Allied Shinobi Alliance under the 'Fourth Shinobi world war' article, where it can be explained in full. The team (Team Kakashi) article argument is an exception. I am just advocating for the proper categorization of information. Please respond if I miss something or I didn't make something clear, I would like to remove the above quote from the article; I believe it isn't necessary to the article. I understand what I am proposing here will be a pain to execute in relation to other articles but I think it would be the proper way in presenting the information.--Alastar 89 (talk) 03:16, May 22, 2011 (UTC) :I'll agree that it isn't necessary to say Sakura specifically as all medical ninjas went to the compound but the rest of that is relevant to the division. If someone comes here and just wants to read up on a specific division say the medics then they can read this article and get the general idea of what the medics contributed instead of wading through the general article on the entire alliance to just find one bit of information. And just so you understand the Ninja Academy is a building not a team/unit. It works in my opinion.--Cerez365™ 03:25, May 22, 2011 (UTC) :I'll have to disagree with your position that the rest of the information after the mention of Sakura is necessary to convey their contribution. My reasoning behind this is you can state their contribution without re-stating the story or the introduction of details, it can be expressed as follows: 'The Logistical support and medical division helped provide materials and medical support to each of the fighting divisions to allow them to continue to fight. They also had to defend from sabotage from hostile forces.' This shows their contribution without the need of re-stating the story/plot. You can always mention they participated in the 'Fourth shinobi world war' which would give the who story.--Alastar 89 (talk) 03:38, May 22, 2011 (UTC) : Cerez365, I understand the Ninja Academy is a building but it fulfills a role in the Leaf Village. They teach and train Ninjas, they are providing a service to the organization which is the Leaf Village. Much like what the Logistic/medical division is doing for the Allied Shinobi Alliance.--Alastar 89 (talk) 03:47, May 22, 2011 (UTC) After thinking it over for 24 hours, I realized that the amount of work to fulfill what I propose would be a tremendous amount of work. Also the fact the community is lacking enthusiasm to restructure how the information is presented, I guess I have no choice but to lay to yeild the idea for now. I just get frustrated seeing articles on this website, whose length feels equivalent to the distance between the Earth and the moon; The countless articles repeating the story over an over instead of breaking down the information into smaller pieces that reference the main article.--Alastar 89 (talk) 06:26, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :Articles should be self-contained to some extent. Needing to read three different articles just to find out about one topic is inconvenient. ''~SnapperT '' 07:08, May 23, 2011 (UTC) ::I understand that but I was proposing a more definition or glossary-like article structure. Where the relevant events would all be explained in the "Fourth Shinobi world war" article but when they mention logistics/medic division; the reader would click the linked word which would describe what the division does and how they are made up/lead. Then they would go back and continue reading from that "main" article, much like a star graph. The surrounding articles would give definitions to the 'central' article when needed. --Alastar 89 (talk) 08:12, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :::You're assuming people are only coming to this article from the Fourth War article, when in fact there are thirteen other articles that link here. So, if your hierarchy were used and I were to be directed here from Akimichi Clan, I would a) not find out all there is to know about the division - which is what I thought I'd get when I clicked the link - b) need to guess which link to use to get what I'm looking for (Fourth Great Shinobi War? Allied Shinobi Forces? Shizune?), and c) once I find the correct article, read through the entire thing just to get what is at most a paragraph of information. The current format may have redundancies spread across several articles, but it's only the editors, not the readers, who care about about redundancies. ''~SnapperT '' 18:03, May 23, 2011 (UTC) :::: My idea wouldn't only be restricted to one article, it would work for multiple articles-(look at 'B') -- A) I don't see what you mean by this - what else is there to know when you are told the function and structure of the division, B)There isn't any need to search for information - if the information about the Akimichi was mentioned in the respective 'Central' article (Akimichi clan article) there wouldn't be a need to search. The Akimichi clan article would mention that there were two unknown Akimichi clan members in 'Logistics/med division' (whats that?) which the reader would click and say "Aww they do this and that for the Allied Shinobi Forces" during the 'Fourth Shinobi world war', C) the information/events would be detailed in the respective articles. ::::When I click on something called "Logistical support and medical division", I ask my self 'What are they/What do they do and when were they used?' I don't ask myself 'What actions did some character do that was somehow associated with said division?' Does that make sense? This revision most likely won't be done since the community doesn't have the will to change the way the information is structured, too much work for a volunteer activity; I would love to be proven wrong on the resolve of the community. --Alastar 89 (talk) 00:35, May 25, 2011 (UTC) :::::The way you're essentially asking to restructure the article is in a way where they incorporate nothing from another division? So you'd say "the compound was guarded" instead of giving details on how the place was guarded "the compound was guarded by two members of the Akimichi clan and..." That doesn't make any sense to me since it's almost unavoidable that other elements are incorporated into the articles. When using a wiki people pick up information from different articles like that which will lead them to other articles and such. It just makes more sense to me the way we do it now, information is easily cross referenced this way. So even though you might initially just want to know what the Medical Division does, the other info will lead to you going to another article to see what happened there.--Cerez365™ 01:00, May 25, 2011 (UTC) :::::: On second thought, it might be important to mention the two Akimichi guards. I am not trying to exclude the mentioning of the Akimichi clan members but as long as you link it to the appropriate article but the mention of the two Akimichi members maybe needed in relation to division structuring. My reasoning can be explained in an example of how I would describe it in the division article which would say, "The Logistical support and Medical division 'headquarters' is guarded by sensor type ninjas to prevent acts of sabotage. A couple of Unknown Akimichi clan members are also seen participating in guard duty along with the sensor type ninjas, it isn't known whether this is the major role the Akimichi clan contributes to the Allied Shinobi Alliance." It is short and sweet, it tells the reader a little bit about the structure of the division while giving note to a clan since we don't know if guard duty is carried out exclusively by the Akimichi clan. --Alastar 89 (talk) 01:30, May 25, 2011 (UTC) :::::I suspect your primary issue is with the attention given to Neji. There's no way to avoid mentioning him, why he's there, or what he does until 540 comes out. ''~SnapperT '' 01:10, May 25, 2011 (UTC) :::::: My primary issue is the step by step account of events placed within this article because it happened in the headquarters, yes it is worthy of mentioning but I think it should only be mentioned in the Neiji article, the 'Fourth shinobi war article or some other character relevant article; I think this article should be used only for describing the division and its roles. The Neiji outcome is still unknown, so I can't really give a proper answer until ch. 540 also.--Alastar 89 (talk) 01:43, May 25, 2011 (UTC) :::::::But...he's murdering members of that division. In the same vain, the Akimichi are guarding the medical compound, I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned here when the events are directly related to the division. If we were talking about what the ambush squad did in this article then i'd understand.--Cerez365™ 01:58, May 25, 2011 (UTC) :::::: Okay lets say Neiji from ch539 is actually Zetsu (for arguments sake). I am worried people will make a long winded, step-by-step explanation of what happened during that chapter in this article. I would like to prevent this "unnecessary" information being presented in this article - 'Logistical support and medical division'; when I say 'Unnecessary', I mean the step-by-step stuff. If "Neiji" is actually Zetsu then I would be okay with a statement like so, "...sensor type ninjas try to guard the headquarters from sabotage, as has happened when Zetsu attacked headquarters while impersonating Neiji." Anything more, I would think, would be unnecessary. The main reason I purposed this change on how information is presented, was actually an attempt to cut back on this "unnecessary" fluff in articles on Narutopedia. I would like the article to be concise based on what topic is being presented, in this case I want the logistic/medic division article to talk mainly about the structure and roles the division is responsible for not about character actions. The use of the Neiji-event as an example of why a particular part of the division structure (security duty) is necessary seems to be the proper way of presenting the information. --Alastar 89 (talk) 02:28, May 25, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::Even If it the circumstances around what "Neji" has to be explained it's unavoidable since it affects the medical division regardless. But I doubt it'll be long winded; it'll probably go along the lines of a sentence explaining it and such. I really can't recall a time or article where that's been done though.--Cerez365™ 02:45, May 25, 2011 (UTC) :My, my! I don't know there's a discussion here. Yes Cerez, you're right, because the incident has connection with this division, we can't avoid it helplessly. Me too. I suggest to protect this article until this have been solved. --NejiLoverr26 (Il anime) 06:32, May 25, 2011 (UTC) Logistical Support and Medical Division Symbol Since we see Shizune with the medical unit symbol on her arm during the war, can we say that it is also the Logistical Support and Medical Division symbol? Joshbl56 (talk) 16:19, September 30, 2011 (UTC) :Not sure. All medical-nin use that even before this division was created. Omnibender - Talk - 19:18, September 30, 2011 (UTC) Sakura Double Membership At the start of the war, Sakura is shown under the Third Division, but she is still a lot of the time seen healing wounded Shinobi in the Logistical Support and Medical Division. Should she not be included as a member of this group and the Third Division, even if temporary is written next to her name in the info box? I think she should be as a "Double Membership]], especially since it was this division that discovered the White Zetsu Army's impersonation trick, which Sakura takes the credit for. If this information is included to show this divisions Accomplishments/Achievements and/or battles, Sakura will inevitably be mentioned. November 18th, 6:33-34 p.m. Kadio123 17:35, November 18, 2012 (UTC) (talk) A lot of people actually have "double membership". The shinobi of the Surprise Attack Division are a prime example of this as is Dodai etc. I'm not sure if others would want to do that, but I wouldn't be opposed to it.--Cerez365™ (talk) 22:00, November 18, 2012 (UTC) Not sure. Dodai and Tango are examples of people within those sub groups which exist in all categories. Zaji, for example, is a sensor, but he's not listed as a member of the Sensor Division. I feel Sakura can be mentioned through the article, and her situation explained in a bullet trivia point. I don't think the team infobox accounts for those tags, it only adds the "manga only" and "anime only" ones. Omnibender - Talk - 00:17, November 19, 2012 (UTC)